Call It What You Want...

I'm not sure what discussion-slash-argument you're talking about. Can you help me? :)

Yes, I too have wondered how that first pastorate is going to work out for him. I just hope that in his next few years in seminary he learns a little bit of humility.

What I've discovered is that people like that--people who are convinced that they know everything and that if you don't agree with them you're going to hell--are speaking and acting out of a lot of fear. They have so wrapped themselves up in their religion and in being correct, that they are scared to death of what it might mean if someone else is correct. To have someone else, who disagrees with them, be correct (and I believe that in many situations two dissenting opinions can both be "correct") calls in to question everything they believe in. And if their beliefs are questioned then they might have to--God forbid--think for themselves.

It's actually very sad. I feel sorry for people like that. They're so wrapped up in being correct that they've stopped seeing people as precious humans and started seeing them as opinions to be squashed.

I appreciate your comments. I found them corrective, thoughtful, engaging, and funny.

Wow. I had stumbled upon that post just being nosey around here a few days ago. I didn't bother to look at comments, just shuddered at the picture. How fascinating/disturbing. I could write a lot, but I'm a bit overwhelmed, so I'll just say: Why don't some people understand that living out a faith IS a form of evangelism? I was certainly never swayed by the tracts handed out in college by the nearby crazy -- oops, sorry, Christian college, but I am constantly swayed by acts of love and generosity and approachable dialogue that, at least to me, show the true nature of Christ. And okay, I'll say more, nationalism isn't usually a good thing. The Nazi party was a nationalist party, do some people want that to return? And what did that guy have against graduate school, besides apparently writing off everything said by a graduate of said school? And last one, you were very eloquent :)

I'd like to stumble upon that post. I find that people usually (but not always) do mature as they leave college for the "real world" and, like you, feel so sorry for those who don't. But as usual, you spoke my feelings so much more eloquently! I also am a recovering know-it-all (you all have helped me a BUNCH!) and feel ashamed of the way I once was!

Preach it, sister. I have gradually come to the same understanding that you speak of (but am surprised and humbled to find myself in your list...how did I do that??)

My favorite part of this was "(even if he's a liberal, God forbid)" :)

Big Mama, check out Pastor Mom on my blogroll on the right. See the post called "Neighbors".

College Roomie, there was something in a particular Letter to the Editor about Bible thumpers once long ago, in which a wise person said, "I prefer to open my Bible and read it..." suggesting that perhaps those who were indeed thumping might be a little more concerned for others if they would do the same. Besides being a good zinger, it was a good point as well. :)

thank you all for humoring me and letting me vent. Coming soon, more cute stories of Mark and the cute things he has done and the cute things he says and... well, you get the idea.

Good day, all.

It is indeed difficult to answer every question, because, as Jenny noted, we cannot answer them all. God has provided all the revelation we need in the Scriptures, but he has not provided us all of the answers - not even about himself. We simply cannot comprehend it.

Jenny, before you assume I didn't answer you because I "considered [it] too far beneath [my] supreme intelligence to even be acknowledged", you should have asked. As I voluntarily removed myself from the post, I have not looked back at it since. However, without recalling it, I would assume that I did not answer your comments because I either agreed in principle or did not disagree enough - if I answer every comment, my comment will be too long and no one will read it! I'm sorry you felt ignored - it was not my intention.

How curious that you accuse me of name-calling, while calling me arrogant. Is that any less a name than ignorant? Isn't "Bible-thumper" name calling? I do not seek your apology, merely an acknowledgment that when we read an opinion, we must decide what the nature of the opinion is - whether it be arrogant or ignorant, drivel or heavy-handed and dogmatic. Ok?

Some helpful details about me, to overcome incorrect (by definition, ignorant - not a value word, but a state of being word restricted to the current subject matter) assumptions.

My faith is not new. I was saved by the grace of God in Christ Jesus 11 years ago. I was licensed to preach 7 years ago and ordained 4 years ago, the first by a "liberal" denomination, the second by a "conservative" one.

I had a "real job" in the "real world" with "actual people" for ten years after college. God has worked through me, though with no talent or quality of my own, to save marriages, save souls, and help myriads of people. I have cared much more than you can imagine, been broken repeatedly, and blessed God for it - although seldom during the breaking!

I have a graduate degree already, not in anything religious. In fact, it happens to be in something that is neither an MBA nor a hard science...exactly what I was speaking of.

God has seen to give grace to me such that I am allowed to read, study, memorize, pray on, and apply the Bible daily. I thank him for these gifts of time, inclination and ability, which are not of my own, but his. Thus, the "zinger" or "good point" is neither.

If you feel I cannot tolerate dissenting opinions, you should check out my blogroll, on which I link to four liberal sites: The Cranky Liberal, Courting Destiny, The Moderate Liberal (no longer active, but Mark still comments), and Barefoot in the Wilderness. I link to them because we are able to have discussions about things which include identifying when one of us is duplicitous, deceitful, ignorant, spouting drivel, etc, and work though it...without threatening to shut down the discussion. I enjoy hearing alternate opinions, and those men and women have helped me to grow intellectually and spiritually - but not neccesarily because they were right. Sometimes I was, sometimes they were, sometimes we both could be. However, step one in spiritual growth is recognizing that if I say "A" and you say, "not A", we can't both be right.

I would appreciate it if any of you stopped by my site and commented on anything there. My site lets me know when people comment, and I always address people with questions and opposing ideas (at least until we understand both each other's positions and, if necessary, that we are immovable).

Finally, I disagree with your flies and honey analogy. As God writes in Jude, "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." In today's post-modern, moral relativist society, many more need to know that they are sinners before they realize a need for the love of Christ. As I go on a visit this week, I will see a man who was found by a church member walking down the road, apparently destitute. He told a story about hitchiking to Chicago to see a son who is about to go to Iraq. I will ask him about his son, when he leaves, what we can do to help him with this goal...and if he thinks he is a good person (www.wayofthemaster.com). He will receive both compassion and fear. However, a smart person spouting moral relativism doesn't think he is a sinner, and needs fear.

Peace in Christ,

Heavens, Jenny. I feel somewhat responsible for his presence here. Sorry about that.

Jur...you can moderate unwanted comments here, right? ;)

So, you prefer to ban us from commenting on your sites, and do the name calling behind closed doors. Nice.

I am sure I will be banned, as well. I was part of what I thought was an intelligent conversation and was surprised to hear that the open-mindedness of the blogger, as well as the commenters, only extends as far as their own opinions.

I think Hammer's comments above were very thoughtful, and very respectful. His attempts to discuss things, and possibly find some common ground here, were met by more unwillingness on the part of the people here. I suppose I had the wrong ideas about intelligent blogs. I always thought they were for discussion and exchange of ideas.

As an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian, I have had my beliefs attacked more times than I can count. It is never much of a problem for me, because I am incredibly secure in my salvation. Do you normally experience much opposition from society? It seems that often progressives fit in much easier in today's society, as a blending of culture and faith makes them more pallatable. I prefer to speak the truth in love, even if it means that not everyone is my friend.

I am sorry for the way that Hammer was treated, as was not deserving of the name calling and banning, simply for sticking up for God's Word.

How about you all just read the next post rather than filling up this comment space...
Thanks